« On the Microsoft Office ODF support fiasco | Main | Welcome »

Sunday, 31 May 2009

Comments

Dinesh Nair

some of us have dealt with mdec and are old enough to remember that mdec usually blows hot over something, and then ignores it the next two years.

any kudos for funding and organizing this conference will only be worth its salt if six months from now, mdec still shows their commitment to open source.

i too still remember when the mdec representative did not support odf at sirim's committees.

rafe

New beginning and new people in MDeC. What has happen in the past we can't change it. But what we can do is look for a better future ahead. We have taken the 1st step of making this conference happened and announce of the RM10m fund for OSS. We may not change what has happend but we certainly can change and manage the future to be. Is not easy for us too but we do manage it. and i do thank you for all the support that i can get.

Dinesh Nair

while that may be so, it's not the first open source conference in the country, so the conference signals mdec's first foray into open source.

and well, i sure hope you chaps do succeed. however certain questions still remain on this, prime among them is perhaps the notion of what the funds will be spent on and mdec's support of open source issues, including the afore mentioned odf process at sirim where the mdec representative clearly voted against it, instead of abstaining.

and while osdc.my was launched with much fanfare, it right now resembles a facebook and social media type site. i wonder what the game plan on this is to be.

Jasni Zain

Allow me to add my 2cents to the discussion. And to those who question my allegience: yes, MDeC gives a monthly retainer, but I am a recent convert to the concept of FOSS, if not the group per se, but definitely the ideals.

MDeC is frequently bashed (and to be fair, at times quite rightly so), for having hot spells and then dropping it like it's hot at the end of the event cycle. Committment from the government, through MDeC, is always a big question mark. Garnering the courage to put forward accountable and measurable milestones in stirring industry development - be it Open Source or any of the 101 projects that simulatneously come out of the MDeC house of ideas - is another checkerboard of hits and misses.

I echo what Yoon Kit opines though: that, at face value, let's give MDeC the benefit of doubt right now. The MSC Open Source Conference has shown renewed sinews of committment towards Open Source from the government, MSC Malaysia & MAMPU. IMHO, the fact that MDeC has committed this much cash and effort to taking in new folks (like me!), courting Open Source users, adopters, developers and freetards and lobbying with agencies to come to its aid for organizing a huge event definitely shows one thing: committment. You put cash down on the things you believe in, and trust me, from within these four walls, we believe ini the growth potential of Open Source, the job creation, GDP contribution and overall economic development to be gained by supporting grassroot movements.

Yes, there are hurdles ahead. What is next? The geniuses here in MDeC have plans, but in the spirit of all things Open Source, shouldn't this be a community driven concept as well? Let's think of projects, not ownership. Contribute to Open Source means contributing to what you and me believe in. So let's get a grip on what it means to be in Open Source, because if you are like me, a recent devotee, lets all get together to focus on our collective road ahead.

//JZ

Harisfazillah Jamel

Cyber Merdeka

http://mscoscon.blogspot.com/2009/06/cyber-merdeka-cyber-sovereignity-by.html

Dinesh Nair

"You put cash down on the things you believe in, and trust me, from within these four walls, we believe ini the growth potential of Open Source, the job creation, GDP contribution and overall economic development..."

thanx for the comment jasni. but like i said, i've been there before with mdec, and efforts and actions over the next few months will tell if this is more than 'hangat hangat tahi ayam', no offence intended.

i'd be curious though, as to how and when this epiphany came to mdec.

"...to be gained by supporting grassroot movements."

that you say that is in itself is telling.

open source is more than just a grassroots movement. its a development and software distribution philosophy which rocks the cradle of established software development and distribution systems commonly used.

its no longer just grassroots, but has become an industry in its own right. companies today have been formed around open source software and projects, and it has made massive inroads into enterprise IT and MIS departments, with support, development and feedback coming from across the spectrum of the IT industry. while at it's core, it's driven by committed individuals and groups centred around software projects, it has come a long way when it was purely a grassroots movement.

"The geniuses here in MDeC have plans, but in the spirit of all things Open Source, shouldn't this be a community driven concept as well?"

which is exactly the point i was trying to make. initial feedback i'm getting is that this doesn't seem very community focussed. inviting the community to attend an event is a good thing, neverthless inclusion of this community into the project itself is critical. a lesson to be learnt here is that open source projects can't be owned, and having a fear of that is something which mdec should eradicate soonest, less this falter again and lose the support of the very crux its existance.

you mention plans, it would really be nice if these plans were known, and there's some community input into them, not just from open source afficiandos, but also msc malaysia status companies which are building open source software. such initiatives are what will make or break this.

Dinesh Nair

btw, i had said the same thing about mdec's recent embracing of open source about six months ago in an openmalaysiablog posting i made at http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2008/12/nanchang-china-mandates-linux.html.

Nasrul

cakap pumpang-pumpang, kutuk sana sini tp dtg cari osdc.my jugak time meeting osdc.my. poyo! sudah jilat ludah sniri ke?

yoonkit

Nasrul wrote:
> cakap pumpang-pumpang, kutuk sana sini tp dtg cari
> osdc.my jugak time meeting osdc.my.
> poyo! sudah jilat ludah sniri ke?

Oh Dear Nasrul,

Im not sure what is causing you such angst which is driving you to write such rude comments in this blog, the osdc.my maillist and on people's facebook walls.

Before we start to flame you, you better read up on what OSDC Australia really stands for and what OSDC.my hopefully intends to be, because you dont seem to understand the very basic concepts of Free and Open Source Software.

I suggest that if you do not agree with the aims of OSDC, you set up your own Proprietary Marketeers Club. I believe KLCC Lev29 has some openings?

yk

Nasrul

wahai yoonkit,
adakah anda terasa dengan komen tersebut?

saya tidak mengkomen tentang apa-apa mengenai Sumber Terbuka. Apa yang saya komen adalah mengenai sikap anda sebagai PAKAR SUMBER TERBUKA di Malaysia yang kununnya sudah lama dengan SUMBER TERBUKA dan berasa hebat dan bagus sehingga mengutuk pihak lain. Dan kini seolah-olah cuba menjilat kembali ludah tersebut.

Bagi perniagaan saya, tak perlulah anda nak suruh sy buka kelab atau apa sedangkan anda juga hanya bekerja di syarikat bapa anda.

KageSenshi

i'm not sure what u meant by 'jilat ludah' .. if u mean 'trying figuring out a way to work together well' as 'jilat ludah' .. so be it! .. theres nothing wrong with fixing mistakes ..

Everyone are human and human make mistakes .. but one of the difference between an ignorant person and one who are not is that - If theres a mistake , it must be fixed.. Does not matter who are making the mistake. Make it another person, or ourselves.

When we see OSDC.my people making mistakes, we shout and try to call for a fix (considering we cant fix it directly). The same goes when we see ourselves making mistakes, we shout and try to figure how we can fix it.

(yes, I attack both the FOSS.my guys and OSDC.my guys equally - just that one side make less action that I deem as a mistakes than the other side)

Knowing there is a mistake, but doing nothing to stop it or rectify it, is an act of ignorance. (Am I seeing a dejavu here? .. I recalled I told this to some of FOSS.my guys when they raised issues about MSCOSCONF but decided to stay away from it - doing something else .. Yet now I'm telling the same thing to a MSCOSCONF guy ... ah the irony)

Right now you are acting in no way different than the people you loath at - those who loves to attack OSDC.my whenever they found technical mistakes.. Probably you are worse, considering your argument does not have a rational basis.

/me thinks you are being attacked by your own self, your own desire as a profiteer, your own fear of openness, and fear of losing profit, which made you to react negatively towards things related to opening up or related to the culture of openness. Which then led you to all this hatred and unpeacefulness in your heart.

I remembered during mscosconf when we mentioned the size of your advertisement is too large, your face and voice tone changed, reflecting dissatisfaction, and unpeacefulness of heart.

regardless who we are, who you are , who I am ..

.. Truth shall become clear from falsehood .. [2:256]

may the PEACE be unto you.

Nasrul

Wahai Kage,
Jika anda tidak berpuas hati dengan iklan mengenai buku saya di laman web OSDC.my, anda boleh meminta pihak berkuasa di OSDC.my untuk membuang iklan tersebut.
Terus terang, tiada keuntungan yang dibuat dari iklan tersebut.
Jika dari awal saya menginginkan keuntungan tersebut, saya sudah meminta pihak yang meletak iklan tersebut meletak rangkaian ke laman web saya.

Jika anda ingin mengungkit kisah MSC Malaysia Open Source Conference, pada waktu tersebut, kami tinggal 2 jam sahaja sebelum majlis bermula. Dan anda hanya tahu mengarah. Sedangkan kami tiada masa untuk mendengar semua arahan semua orang. Sebab, semua orang hanya tahu mengarah, tapi tak boleh membuat atau menolong. Kami dah 3/4 mati, bertungkus lumus untuk menyediakan laman web dan brosur, dan apa yang anda tahu, wah Iklan besar. Iklan tersebut bukan sahaja untuk saya. dari PENAJA laman web OSDC.my.
Jadi, kenapa perlu jadi terlalu bijak sana meminta untuk membuang iklan tersebut?
Adakah anda yang menaja skrip laman web tersebut?
Jika tidak, harap bersabar. Dan penjelasan dari pihak penaja kenapa iklan-iklan tersebut besar adalah cukup memuaskan hati kami kerana kami sudah meminta iklan tersebut dibuang sebelum pelancaran.
Jika anda tidak ada semasa perbincangan tersebut kerana anda bukan sebahagian dari kami, saya minta maaf. Mungkin dimasa hadapan, anda calon terbaik untuk membantu Komuniti Sumber Terbuka. Seperti yang anda cakap, saya seorang yang mencari KEUNTUNGAN, jadi memang betul. Sebab itu saya berniaga. sebab di dalam Al-Quran menyatakan yang 9/10 daripada rezeki datang dari perniagaan. Tetapi harap maaf, pada MSC Open Source Conference, saya disana sebagai seorang yang menolong dan membalas budi orang yang menolong saya.

Jika anda terasa dengki kerana tiada iklan laman web anda, mungkin saya boleh cadangkan untuk membuang iklan saya dan meletakkan iklan anda. Saya pasti, anda juga mencari populariti di Internet.

Terima kasih kerana mendoakan kesejahteraan kepada saya. Alhamdulillah.

KageSenshi

naah, I dont envy that advertisement. It was of no use for me. It was your facial expression and tone change after the people in the secretariat room (we) stated the advertisement was too large for the screenshot for the launch was what I see as something need to be fixed.

Btw, that 9/10 of livelihood comes from business is not in the Quran, its one of the Hadith (yup its a common Hadith around Malaysia of which after some Googling and rough search oh Haidth sites, I can't find which Sahih was that Hadith belongs to - I might missed it though - care to give a reference?)

There's nothing wrong to find money, but when money get into a person head too much, it causes a reaction in his mind:

"Money is not evil, but it exposes the evilness in a person"

Am I the best person for FOSS?? .. NO I AM NOT!! and I never claimed I am ... I was mainly there to be a check and balance and see whether I can help OSDC.my to follow the FOSS principle of openness. A good FOSS ecosystem is when people work together following FOSS fundamentals.

Regarding work during MSCOSCONF, I wonder whether you observe the rest of the people or not. I know in particular that I've been all over the place helping Haris - and also doing the task described in the volunteer task list. (main reason I was rarely around in the secretariat room). I also observe everyone are doing their part, which was great and totally fine. But saying only a few people work but the rest don't , is not a good thing.

Regarding you statement on popularity - I don't look for popularity, I don't need it - its a curse (curse of popularity - loses the privilege of privacy) . Plus I don't do personal advertisements, the only advertisement I put was on my blog, which is Google ad - with the purpose simply to pay for domain name. Even my online presence was rather low, I'm mainly on IRC (of which many youngsters does not even use), mailing lists, identi.ca, commit logs - and a bit of facebook. It just so happens many people know me - why? , you should ask them about that. I only roughly know the reason - which I won't state it here.

may Peace be unto you ..

Nasrul

Semasa di sana, saya tidak kenal siapa anda kerana kita tidak pernah berjumpa semasa proses membina laman web tersebut. Jadi, bagi membuat sesuatu keputusan, arahan dari seseorang yang tidak ada tidak dikenali pastinya mendatangkan rasa 'siapa awak?'

terima kasih di atas ulasan anda.
rasanya saya sudah berpuas hati dengan komen-komen anda semua yang hebat di Sumber Terbuka sedangkan saya masih baru.
Terima Kasih, kini saya memahami apa itu Sumber Terbuka. Hidup Perisian Percuma Sumber Terbuka (FOSS)!

KageSenshi

Free
its not free as in free price
its free as in Freedom

Open
its not just about opening up your source code
its also about the culture of Openness

Strangers
Many of us work with total strangers everyday. One thing that connects us together is the FOSS philosophy. Strangers become colleagues in a blink of an eye under the spirit of FOSS.

Expert
There are no experts, everyone are equal. The difference is simply one might have more experience and knowledge than the other. Experience and knowledge can be transfered in a short time, if one really look, listen, think, and most importantly, understand. A 15 year old kid, might have more experience and knowledge than a 35 years old guy, if the kid understands better.

I am not an expert, there are always people out there who understands things better than me.

Time
Time heals all wound. Time changes people. Experience grow over time. You are new to the culture, we know. Hopefully as time flows, you and others will grow to understand the FOSS world, culture and communities. I'll wait for that time to come.

Fight for what you believe, but remember, in the end we are still brothers. Children of Adam and Eve.

Peace be unto you.

Nasrul

Alhamdulillah. Terima Kasih atas penjelasan tersebut.

yoonkit

Nasrul,

It is interesting that you are criticising our actions as FOSS proponents, when your comments itself certainly gives a bad impression to all the other LAMP2WIMP winners. Are all the winners of Microsoft's money so hell bent in attacking FOSS people? I hope not. I really hope that you are the only anomaly. So lets try to fix that.

Can you state exactly what I criticized which has gotten you so riled up? As far as I can see, the above blog post on "the cognitive dissonance within MDeC" is a fair representation of the current state of events. I elaborated in the post to provide constructive corrections for MDeC and the communities to take in the future, so as to be more consistent with the FOSS message.

After your first comment, I tried to get in touch with you via Facebook, your favourite Social Networking platform, so as to take this issue offline. However you did not respond privately but instead preferred to engage in the name calling and petty personal attacks online. If thats the image you want to project for yourself, by all means, keep going. We'll just sit back and enjoy the show.

So Nasrul, can you please tune down your vitriol? You are hurting your standing in the community more than you realise.

If you intend to contribute to the community, please realise that you need to thicken your skin with regards to taking constructive criticisms. You, like what I went through, will get alot of it. You should know by now that geeks like us are more direct and blunt with our messages.

We arent smooth tongued salesmen ala experienced marketeers, who have are thick in skin for self promotion even at the most inappropriate occasions, yet thin in skin when it comes to self criticisms.

Read my article again. I "spat" out my thoughts, but it was to heal the wounds [0 : follow the link; your favourite word, "licking," is involved too].

I will be happy to report to Microsoft that their Marketing monies in sponsoring their brilliant LAMP2WIMP competition has worked beyond their wildest dreams; Their investment has created some really fanatical anti-FOSS marketeers from within. So unless you want to remain a testament to their strategy, do us all a favour and educate yourself in what really FOSS means, and not be a tool for others.

Remember: Free as in Freedom.


yk

0: http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/histatin_why_licking_your_wounds_actually_works

KageSenshi

ugh just when the flame has cooled down ... T_T

hotheaded people are everywhere i guess ...

Nasrul

yk,

Sebenarnya saya mmg tak ada masa untuk baca mesej di Facebook. Harap maaf, bkn anda seorang yang menghantar mesej tetapi lebey dari 500 mesej saya terima sehari. Harap maklum, saya mungkin mengambil masa lebih dari sebulan untuk mencari mesej anda.

Apa tujuan anda berada di komuniti Sumber Terbuka?
Jika anda menyatakan yang saya tidak ada asas Sumber Terbuka di senarai emel osdc.my, saya berbesar hati mengaku kenyataan tersebut. Yang pasti, saya bukan pembangun Sumber Terbuka yang hebat dan Gah seperti anda.

Saya juga mungkin bukan 'Kipas Susah Mati' Sumber Terbuka. Saya tak suka dengan Sistem Operasinya. Wlpn ada GIMP utk membuat grafik tetapi tiada tutorial yang byk seperti Photoshop dan Illustrator.
Dan ada beberapa aplikasi lain dari Sistem Operasi Sumber Terbuka yang kurang menyenangkan saya.

Tetapi itu tidak bermakna saya anti-sumber terbuka. Saya masih menggunakan aplikasi-aplikasi Sumber Terbuka lain di platform 'proprietary'.
Adakah keadaan itu menjadi isu orang bijak sana di Sumber Terbuka?

Setahu saya, jika orang yang hebat di Sumber Terbuka, kebanyakannya adalah berprofil rendah dan tidak mahu dikenali ramai.
Tapi saya lihat, anda lain dari mereka. Adakah anda sekadar bijak di senarai email/blog dsbg?

Bagi saya, saya merasakan malu jika anda yang menyatakan saya kurang bijak tetang Sumber Tebuka manakala anda sebagai seorang Pakar Sumber Terbuka (walaupun sindiri angkat bakul) bertindak terlalu bijak dengan mengutuk setiap orang yg baru di komuniti ini.

Sepatutnya orang seperti anda diperlukan untuk mendidik dan membesarkan lagi komuniti Sumber Terbuka tetapi sekarang dilihat seolah-olah anda ingin anda seorang sahaja menjadi Pakar dan yang kurang bijak tetap menjadi kurang bijak.

Kasihan Komuniti Sumber Terbuka di Malaysia...

Saya minta maaf, Sumber Terbuka bukan agama saya.
Jadi, saya tidak terlalu fanatik seperti anda. Saya hanya pengguna baru di Sumber Terbuka. Baru 9 thn berbanding anda yg mungkin sejak lahir di hospital telah di beri peluang menggunakan sumber terbuka.

Mungkin sumbangan anda sebagai Pakar Sumber Terbuka di Malaysia juga telah banyak berbanding saya yang tidak pernah menyumbang, hanya mengguna.

Tapi sebijak mana pun manusia, jika bongkak, lama kelamaan akan kurang bijak juga.

Bagi saya 'geek' bukan orang seperti anda seperti anda nyatakan pada komen di atas. Kerana geek tidak di kenali ramai. Mungkin geek sebenar di komuniti-komuniti tersembunyi.

Dan saya rasa anda sudah tiada modal untuk membantai saya. Sebab selepas komen Kage, saya lebih bertindak hendak mendiamkan diri dan iyakan semua kenyaatan anda semua yang 'pakar' dan bijak.
Dengan menyatakan hasrat untuk mengadukan saya pada OSDC.au atau Microsoft, tidak membawa makna apa-apa kepada saya. kerana saya bukan seekor ayam atau lelaki lembut yang takut pada ugutan. Hanya anak MAK sahaja yang mengugut orang lain.

Microsoft tidak membayar saya untuk komen atau mencari pasal dengan sesiapa. Apa yang saya nyatakan adalah dari pemerhatian saya.

Saya minta maaf jika anda berniat utk menyertai LAMP2WIN dan menang atau publisiti saya di surat khabar membuatkan anda cemburu. Saya minta maaf. Saya menang atas dasar usaha dan kemenangan tersebut tidak dibayar untuk menjatuhkan mana-mana Komuniti Sumber Terbuka. Sekarang tepuk dada, tanya hati siapa yang busuk? Siapa yang marah? Kalau saya tahu anda tidak berpuas hati atas kemenangan LAMP2WIN tersebut, dah lama saya belanja makan bersama kumpulan sumber terbuka anda.

Tetapi jika anda masih untuk menyatakan anda bijak/pakar dan sebagainya dalam Komuniti Sumber Terbuka, saya mengiyakan saja.

Saya rasa anda memang PAKAR kerana dalam senarai emel OSDC.my anda dan pakar-pakar lain mengutuk MOSTI mengenai bidang kerja mereka.

Jadi, sebulat suara, saya menyatakan anda PAKAR.

Sekian,

Nasrul
Pengguna Baru Sumber Terbuka

Nasrul

Kage,
Betul! Saya menyokong kenyaatan anda!
Orang panas baran di mana-mana. Kadangkala orang panas baran terpaksa mengalah jika berjumpa dewa-dewa yg lg PANAS.

KageSenshi

@nasrul

Fighting fire with fire will only burn both of you ..

Once this degrade to person-to-person cursing, it benefits none .. only will make matters worse ..

If both of you want to continue doing this. Do it in private email. Don't get FOSS.my, OSDC.my, or FOSS name involved in it.

No one person able to represent a community as a whole. This flamewar is personal between both of you. Not between the two communities.

"And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: 'To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant.' " [28:55]

Peace be to you

rafe

i echo kage, this argument be better off in private. 2 mature man argue over in blog is not the way of moving forward. take it offline guys be sensitive over the rest of the community.

Thousand of people are looking at this what would they think of the Malaysian Community? you guys are better and smarter than this.

Ditesh

Dear Rafe,

I can understand yk's response.

This was started after nasrul's messages on kage, foss.my and openmalaysiablog on twitter, facebook, osdc.my mailing list and here.

Yk mentioned that he msg'ed nasrul on facebook but no response was to be had. I'm not sure what else one can do under these circumstances.

The words used by nasrul were highly personal attacks. This is not the Malaysian culture. Also, in the OSS culture, it's ok to speak out or provide criticism but it must be constructive/positive and not be an attack on others. In the end, this has only reflected badly on nasrul. I just hope newbies on the osdc.my mailing list were not frightened by the strong words used.

As a contributing member of mscosconf and osdc.my, your role in advising nasrul (just like how kage and yk have done) to take a more constructive and positive stand will be beneficial to the whole community.

Kind regards,
Ditesh

rafe

Will do. but you have to understand each living person have they own opinion towards thing that matter and those that they believed in same goes to everyone else here. I'll not say that what Nasrul said is bad nor good will try to understand him and where is he coming from. least from there we can move in a better way.

Nasrul

Kepada semua,
Terima Kasih pada segala nasihat termasuk dari Rafe.
Tapi apa yang ingin diperkatakan oleh saya adalah dari kaca mata saya sebagai orang baru di Komuniti Sumber Terbuka. Pandangan ini bukan untuk individu tertentu dengan niat utk berperang tetapi sebagai pandangan saya dalam tempoh 2 bulan pemerhatian.

Jika semua ini adalah respon terhadap pandangan saya, jadi rasanya saya dan orang baru yang lain tidak patut berada di Komuniti Sumber Terbuka di Malaysia.

Anda tidak boleh menerima pandangan orang lain tetapi mahu orang lain menerima pandangan anda.

Anda sememangnya 'old timer' di Komuniti Sumber Terbuka. Mungkin terlalu lama hingga tidak nampak kesalahan sendiri.

Justeru itu, saya sebagai orang baru menyatakan pendapat peribadi saya. Kerana saya percaya, Komuniti Sumber Terbuka sepatutnya lebih 'TERBUKA' untuk menerima pendapat orang baru bukan 'MENUTUP' minda dengan apa yang anda ikut selama ini.

Pada pendapat peribadi saya, mungkin sebab itu OSDC.my mungkin ditubuhkan untuk membantu pengguna baru atau 'newbies' sbb mungkin 'old timer' tidak bersikap 'TERBUKA'.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name and email address are required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)